93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

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Perry
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Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am

93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#1 Post by Perry » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:31 am

Trying to down load the photos, router went out last night, having to use phone for net.
Did some digging on an Elgin grade 93, serial 961793. The results came back 1881, having a more common 16s casing, yet a few were 14s. Measured the outside of the mechanical unit, ie inside diameter of the case, for a dial caliper observation of <1.64". As a secondary note, the 'Co.', in Elgin Natl. Watch Co., has been double struck. Movement will cease if stationary, and it's wound tighter than I'm comfortable with. Trying to relieve spring by constant motion.
Hope to have the photos up soon,
Perry

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Perry
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am

Re: 93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#2 Post by Perry » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:32 pm

Took less than a half hour, on the watch, to unwind the main spring. I've noticed replacements can be had, how much trouble am I looking at?
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441victor
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Re: 93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#3 Post by 441victor » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm

Welcome to the VWF Perry. There are many knowledgeable people here who are always eager to help. You didn't mention your level of experience or what you are wanting to do with your Elgin. Maybe I can make a start. In order to get it running well, it will need to be disassembled and cleaned. Any problems can be diagnosed and fixed in the process. You can learn to do this yourself or pay a professional to do it for you. I find these little machines a challenge and have spent the last 10 years or so figuring out how to bring them back to life. I'm not good by any definition but it pleases greatly when I succeed. The first thing you will encounter with this movement is the bodge job a previous owner has done to the center wheel. Depending on what is under that glob of solder, you are probably looking at a stripped screw and a need to replace some parts. With a quick look on the web I found a post by Jeff Sexton on the Elgin Vintage Horological site.

http://elgintime.blogspot.com/2016/10/e ... tible.html

He shows some repairs he did to a grade 93. There are many resources here that can be tapped with just a question and a picture or on the web with a Google search. Good luck on your quest, Joel

Perry
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Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am

Re: 93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#4 Post by Perry » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:33 pm

Thank you for the response victor. My goal is to finish identity confirmation, as I don't know if I'm measuring the movement diameter correctly. Experience would be novice, yet trained as a tool&die maker to measure .00005 (pronounced fifty millionths of an inch) and hold machined tolerance of .0001"per inch of distance. I've yet to obtain a set of small screwdrivers, recommendations? Saw a replacement spring, while researching, figured I might give it a shot. Thanks for the link, any other tutorials on repair?
As for the solder blob, ya I always thought it was ugly, though it may be a 'factory repair'. It may also be wishful thinking.
Where is the movement size measured, if this is not a 14s?

mrtoad
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Re: 93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#5 Post by mrtoad » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:30 pm

Welcome to the Forum! This is an Elgin "Convertible", 16S, one of my favorite Elgin movements.

That is indeed an ugly solder blob! If I were working on the movement, I'd try to cut it down to the least size that would hold the wheel on the arbor. I'd say this is a repair made by someone who doesn't know what he's doing.

By "Convertible" is meant that this movement can be set up for either hunter or open-face cases by moving some of the parts under the plate that has the serial number on it.

Movement size is measured on the lower or pillar plate, which is just under the dial: you have to take the movement out of the case to see it. That plate is usually larger than the upper plates, where you have your calipers (it serves as a flange to keep the movement in the case).

I find one of the trickiest things about working on these movements is not to lose the parts under the curved spring that connect the spring to the setting lever under the dial. The fork-like extension from the spring moves the big wheel next to the serial number up and down: When it's down, ratchet teeth under it engage the main winding wheel; when it's up its perimeter teeth engage the wheel with the solder blog for setting time. It's an ingenious mechanism but somewhat fussy to adjust.

BTW, the "C" on "Co." isn't double struck: that's a flourish in the design, sort of like the one on the "E" of "Elgin".

Perry
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Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am

Re: 93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#6 Post by Perry » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:15 am

Thank you for the clarification mrtoad, it's been an interesting experience to learn some basic history of pocket watches, the past week. May not have known what he was doing, yet the error has high potential to be corrected by a solder pump. Studied how to make stamping dies, would these gears be an example, or by what means were they fabricated?
Hope to use the assembly tip given, should be on camera to catch mistakes. The main spring sprag is engaged while the crown is up and down, shouldn't the hands move to set the time while the crown is extended?

If you don't mind, how 'correct' is the subject line? 3finger, what is CVT, and grade 93?
3 finger being minute hand?

441victor
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Re: 93, 3 finger, CVT 14s (?)

#7 Post by 441victor » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:06 pm

3-finger is a term used to describe a design for the train bridge where it appears to look like three fingers each holding a wheel jewel at its end. I found a NAWCC post by Tom McIntyre that illustrates the two forms using Elgin convertible movements. It's about half way down the thread.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/jewel-sett ... 270.33116/

CVT I assume stands for convertible. Aside from very cheap movements, the teeth of the wheels are machined using a cutter on a mill. Usually several at a time, stacked together. The holes may be stamped out or cut on a different machine and then finished to differing degrees. You can find videos online showing the process. Joel

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